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CU Guru [1636]
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The myth of Tommy Bowden
Jul 30, 2010, 4:57 PM
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I saw everyone on here all the time talk about when Bowden was coach, talking about how unpredictable he was, and still today, talk about it, in a negative way. The research does not really support these claims. Here are the facts:
Tommy Bowden seasons:
Tommy Bowden's 1999 team was 6-6 and had losses to NC State (6-6), Marshall (13-0), FSU (12-0), VT, (11-1), GT (8-4), and MSU (10-2).
1999 team: Record: 6-6: Average record of teams they lost too: 10-2
2000 team record: 9-3, losses were to GT (9-3), FSU (11-2), and VT (11-1).
2000 Team Record 9-3: Average record of teams they lost too: 10-2
2001 team record: 7-5, losses were to UVA (5-7), UNC (8-5), FSU (8-4), Maryland (10-2), and SCar (9-3).
2001 record 7-5: Average record of teams they lost too: 8-4
2002 team record: 7-6: Losses to UGA (13-1), FSU (9-5), UVA (9-5), NC State (11-3), Maryland (11-3), and Texas Tech (9-5).
2002 record 7-6: Average record of teams they lost too: 10-3 to 10-4
2003 team record: 9-4: Losses to UGA (11-3), Maryland (10-3), NC State (8-5), and Wake Forest (5-7).
2003 record 9-4: Average record of teams they lost too: 8.5-3, or 8-3 to 9-3
2004 team record: 6-5: Losses to GT (7-5), Texas A&M (7-5), FSU (9-3), UVA (8-4), and Duke (2-9).
2004 record 6-5: Average record of teams they lost too: 6.6, or 6-5 to 7-5
2005 team record: 8-4: Losses to Miami (9-3), BC (9-3), Wake Forest (4-7), and GT (7-5).
2005 record 8-4: Average record of teams they lost too: 7-4.5, or 7-4 to 7-5.
2006 team record: 8-5: Losses to BC (10-3), VT (10-3), Maryland (9-4), South Carolina (8-5), and Kentucky (8-5).
2006 record 8-5: Average record of teams they lost too: 9-4
2007 team record: 9-4: Losses to GT (7-6), VT (11-3), BC (11-3), and Auburn (9-4).
2007 team record 9-4: Average record of teams they lost too: 9.5-4, or 9-4 to 10-4.
2008 Tommy Bowden losses: Alabama (12-2), Maryland (8-5), and Wake Forest (8-5).
Average record of teams Bowden lost too in 2008: 9-4
Tommy Bowden career averages (not including 2008):
Average Record: 9 full seasons: 7.6, or 7 to 8 wins, and 4.6 losses, or 4 to 5 losses.
OK, you all say he had that one horrible game every year. The only real scratch my head season I can see is 2003. In nine years, Bowden lost to a team with a losing record four times. The 7-5 2001 team lost to a 5-7 UVA team, the 9-4 2003 team got drilled by a 5-7 Wake team, which was probably the biggest head scratching game of his career, the other losses to teams with losing records were at least close games. The 6-5 2004 team lost to a 2-9 Duke team. That Duke game was a three point loss, and was also sand-witched right between an emotional overtime win against Miami at the orange bowl, and a blowout brawl game against rival South Carolina. Even one of Danny Ford's best teams in history in 1989, who beat a highly rated FSU team on the road, and drilled West Virginia and South Carolina at the end of the year, lost a game at Duke. Granted, it was an 8 win Duke team coached by Spurrier, but a loss to Duke is a loss to Duke.
Bowden's last loss to a losing team was his 2005 8-4 team losing to a 4-7 Wake Forest team. Apparently Wake was just Bowden's nemesis. Danny Ford had a nemesis as well, it was NC State. In 1986 a 8-2-2 Clemson team lost to a 8-3-1 NC State team, 27-3. In 1987 a 10-2 Danny Ford Clemson team lost to a 4-7 NC State team in Death Valley, 30-28. In 1988 a 10-2 Danny Ford Clemson team lost to a 8-3-1 NC State team, 10-3. Three years in a row Ford lost to NC State, and in all three years, each team had two total losses.
My conclusion is that Bowden had his nemesis, Wake Forest, like Ford did with NC State. Bowden also had that one game that haunts every long tenured Clemson coach in Wallace Wade Stadium. What about all of Tommy Bowden's upsets? The 2003 games against FSU and Tennessee, the ownership of South Carolina, the 2004 upset at Miami? The exciting offensive productions at GT and NC State in 2001? He also came very close to some huge upsets. In 1999 he almost came away with Bowden Bowl One against national champ FSU. In 2002 he was so close against an eventual 13-1 SEC champion UGA team in Athens. 63-17 speaks for itself.
He had some heartbreaking losses to teams like Georgia, Auburn, Miami, Boston College, and Georgia Tech, as well as a some blowout losses to UGA, Wake, Texas Tech, and Alabama, but, all of those teams, with the exception of that Wake team, blew out other good teams as well those same seasons. I think he should get a lot more credit than he does.
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Zealot [884]
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Tommy is no longer at Clemson, who gives a shyatt***
Jul 30, 2010, 5:20 PM
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Starter [389]
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in response to DEVANS, Danny Ford is no longer at clemson
Jul 30, 2010, 5:55 PM
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and even though its recent cj spiller is no longer at clemson. But we sure do talk a lot about them on this board
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Rock Defender [54]
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Just like the Bear in Bama. Royal in TX, Osborne in NB,
Jul 30, 2010, 6:35 PM
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JJ in Miami, Heisman @ GT, Auerback in Boston, Wooden @ UCLA, etc. etc. etc.
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CU Guru [1636]
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110%er [7831]
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CU Guru [1636]
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Re: Tommy is no longer at Clemson, who gives a shyatt***
Jul 30, 2010, 6:35 PM
[ in reply to Tommy is no longer at Clemson, who gives a shyatt*** ] |
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Neither is Larry Shyatt, so why use the word Shyatt? Clemson's national championship was almost 30 years ago, why is it still on the scoreboard?
Frank Howard has been dead for years, why his voice still on the speakers before every game?
If you can come up with something better to talk about in July, then have it, smart guy. Better yet, please do not bring up 1981, 63-17, or anything positive that's happened in the past, because it is no longer current, so no one should give a "shyatt."
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110%er [7191]
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Re: Tommy is no longer at Clemson, who gives a shyatt***
Jul 31, 2010, 7:40 AM
[ in reply to Tommy is no longer at Clemson, who gives a shyatt*** ] |
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Apparently those people who love to dwell on the past,as in the topic on the front page concerning Danny Ford in 1989.
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Orange Blooded [3919]
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In time, he'll be looked upon more favorably. Case in point,
Jul 30, 2010, 5:20 PM
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it isn't like the cupboard was bare in terms of talent. Of course I'm one of those who blames Spence for a predictable, soft offense, and I still am bewildered by our lack of O-line production, combined with some unfortunate injuries.
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110%er [7831]
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I am with you there. Spence should have been let go
Jul 30, 2010, 6:56 PM
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the season before Tommy got fired.
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Rock Defender [54]
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Expert [1102]
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Never knew how to handle success and
Jul 30, 2010, 5:29 PM
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never could replace Rich Rodriguez. Also, kept people from the Bowden/FSU tree around too long. Clemson could beat Miami 1 week, then lose to Duke the next. Those loses are on the coaches not the players.
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110%er [6321]
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Re: The myth of Tommy Bowden
Jul 30, 2010, 5:31 PM
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Boy, I appreciate the work you put into this, but you REALLY whiffed on the big point of Bowden's coaching tenure at Clemson:
Tommy Bowden NEVER put together a COMPLETE great season at Clemson the entire time he was here.
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All-In [27408]
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Re: The myth of Tommy Bowden
Jul 30, 2010, 5:41 PM
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Try all you like. Use all the stats you can find. Praise him in every way possible. But in the final analysis, he sucked as a coach, the players didn't play for him the way they should have, he was an arrogant as$ hole who thought he knew everything and the common fan was an idiot. He was paid BIG money to coach the Clemson Tigers but never listed Clemson as a major priority in his life. He WAS A PHONY. He is now a phony out of work!
Thanks for people like Dabo. TB would have destroyed the Clemson fan base if he had stayed one more year. Drill away!
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Only a childish moron would make the statement you just did,
Jul 30, 2010, 6:08 PM
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Unless you knew the guy personally how would you know he was an arrogant a$$ or how he felt about the fan base?
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110%er [6768]
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Well, he sure acted like an arrogant jerk in the media,
Jul 30, 2010, 6:28 PM
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so I doubt he was a really nice guy behind closed doors.
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110%er [6937]
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Re: He appeared to be a pretty nice guy to me. Average
Jul 30, 2010, 7:52 PM
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coach or better, a heck of a recruiter and apparently a good family man of high morals. I know I would like to be as well thought of.
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Rock Defender [54]
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Where were you? The media wrote all the time about and fans
Jul 30, 2010, 6:32 PM
[ in reply to Only a childish moron would make the statement you just did, ] |
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gripped often about TB's "perceived" arrogance and aloofness! Every time he tried to come across cute or flippant, which was way too often, he looked silly.
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110%er [6768]
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I loved the comment his diddy made about not listening to
Jul 30, 2010, 6:40 PM
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the fans, or you'd be sitting with them. Well the fans were screaming for a change in offensive personnel and game play, and Bowden ignored them, and now look where he is.
I was behind Bowden until 2006, because I get fed up with his attitude and lack of motivational ability. Bowden knows the X's and O's of football, but he doesn't know how to motivate players, unify the fan base, or instill confidence in his players. He's wasn't a good coach. I don't miss him one bit.
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Orange Blooded [3820]
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unify the fan base???
Jul 31, 2010, 1:39 PM
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Oh lord...if we ever blame anything else more ridiculous on Tommy Bowden then may the blogger win the lottery! I don't think that we can blame TB for the utter inability of our fans to be able to remember where he brought us from (K Hatfield, T West), what existed in the program before Danny (Hootie Ingram, Charley Pell), or how to show a little humility when breaks don't seem to go our way. That's pretty much our own fault.
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110%er [6937]
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CU Guru [1636]
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He did not look silly
Jul 31, 2010, 12:09 AM
[ in reply to Where were you? The media wrote all the time about and fans ] |
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When I saw him take time out to speak at a Church in Greer. My parents are members of that Church, and the pastor is a diehard Coot. After that speech that night there were a lot of coots in that Church saying what Tommy said changed their lives and made them think about things more than the coot Pastor. Spin that in a negative way, go ahead, but I know B.S. when I see it, and saw him being very sincere.
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Rock Defender [54]
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oh please! he wasn't paid to preach but to coach and as a
Jul 31, 2010, 12:14 AM
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coach he ran his mouth and looked silly often.
last I checked, football is played on Saturdays in Clemson, not Sunday morning. You people using Christ to prop up TB look like fools on the deck of the Titanic saying don't worry, she's unsinkable as people were falling overboard.
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CU Guru [1636]
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Re: oh please! he wasn't paid to preach but to coach and as a
Aug 1, 2010, 11:26 AM
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How is a coach who goes around speaking at churches in the off season, when no contact with recruits is allowed, "propping up that person with Christ?"
I am sure Tommy needed the extra money so bad to go around speaking at churches. I am sure his family was hurting so bad that in the off season he snickered to his wife and said, "Haha, here is something I can do that shouldn't be so hard, I can go around and pretend like I love this Jesus character, to gather all of this extra money we need."
Please...unless you have ever been a head coach you do not know how busy their lives are during the season. You really think he is going to spend what little bit of spare time he has going around and 'pretending he loves Jesus?'
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All-TigerNet [14090]
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Met him at iptay function and he was nice....
Jul 31, 2010, 7:19 AM
[ in reply to Re: The myth of Tommy Bowden ] |
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Bowden was always accessible and very polite to the fanbase. He always went to iptay or clemson club functions all over the state and in other states. So to say he didn't care about the fanbase is completely false. He didn't have what it took to take us to the next level, but he didn't suck, the guy never had a losing season. Bowden was kept around to long but to say he sucked and was arrogant is beyond ridiculous.
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Rock Defender [54]
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Exactly. Throttle GaTech one week, get embarassad by
Jul 30, 2010, 5:51 PM
[ in reply to Re: The myth of Tommy Bowden ] |
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VT at home the next week. TB's teams were incredibly inconsistent and you NEVER knew which team would show up!
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CU Guru [1636]
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You ever heard of match ups?
Jul 30, 2010, 8:58 PM
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Sometimes you do not match up as well with some teams as you do others. That VT game was five days after we played GT at home, and was played at VT. Clemson started out that season 6-1, and finished 8-5. After that GT game, it took a smart coach like Frank Beamer to expose our weaknesses. All you had to do was stack the box against our run, force Proctor to throw the ball, and you could beat us. Plus we had a poor offensive line. We scored more than 50 points our first four out of seven games that year, but once VT showed others how to beat us, the most points we scored in a single game the rest of the year was in a 31-28 loss to South Carolina, which took a couple of fluke plays to score touchdowns in that one. That had nothing to do with Bowden being inconsistent, that had everything to do with teams learning what they needed to do to beat Clemson.
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Rock Defender [54]
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nice spin, but that happened to us often under TB. How come
Jul 31, 2010, 12:19 AM
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we were almost never blown out under Ford? How come other great teams are rarely if ever beaten by more than 7 to 10 points? Doesn't everyone have match-up problems sometimes?
You people kill me, TB should of been gone years earlier and years later some of you are still on here drinking the TB kool Aid.
If he was so great why isn't he coaching now?
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CU Guru [1636]
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You obviously cannot comprehend anything
Jul 31, 2010, 12:31 AM
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When, and I will ask it again, WHEN, did I say that Tommy Bowden was a great coach?
How come other great teams are rarely if ever beaten by more than 7 to 10 points? Doesn't everyone have match-up problems sometimes?
MY GOSH DUDE, I NEVER SAID THAT TOMMY BOWDEN WAS A GREAT COACH, NEVER! I was trying to make the point that he should get more respect than he gets, but I never said he was a legend, a Danny Ford, or anything like that. I am simply saying that he did some good things for Clemson, that he should get some credit for, and not be criticized so much for. WHAT DO YOU NOT GET ABOUT ALL OF THIS? No, great coaches rarely lose by more than 7 to 10 points, and TB was NOT a great coach. I just think he deserves more credit than he gets. Geez, am I in the Twilight Zone...............?
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CU Medallion [51581]
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Legend [18850]
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Tommy.......How are your Mom and Dad doing these days?***
Jul 30, 2010, 5:52 PM
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Legend [15863]
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Dad is Dadgumm Old & fired MOM is just still angry & Bitter
Jul 30, 2010, 10:13 PM
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that we been takin it to FSU lately.
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Letterman [298]
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In Bowden's last four years,
Jul 30, 2010, 5:59 PM
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Clemson had a better record as an underdog than as a favorite. Clemson was favored in 10 of the last 11 games that Clemson lost with Bowden as coach. That's what people mean by unpredictable and underachieving.
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CU Guru [1636]
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Yes, but that really doesn't mean much to me
Jul 31, 2010, 12:18 AM
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In his last four years, the ACC was very, very even, with the exeption of maybe VT, and the last couple of years GT. It was very hard to predict winners in the last few years of the ACC. No team was really head and shoulders above another except the ones I mentioned.
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Rock Defender [54]
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Nothing means much to anyone living in denial!***
Jul 31, 2010, 12:20 AM
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Addict [443]
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7.5 wins/yr and 0 Championships; Yep, pretty predictable***
Jul 30, 2010, 6:08 PM
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Hall of Famer [22389]
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that's a lot of research that means nothing...
Jul 30, 2010, 6:13 PM
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For example, losses to "teams with winning records" is practically meaningless. Look at how many of those teams were 7-6 or 7-5, etc. Without beating us, they wouldn't have had a winning record. I really can't celebrate our ineptitude boosting an opponents won-loss record to slightly over .500. Especially as down as the ACC has been lately.
Forget all the stats and analysis, the bottom line is this. Look at some of the teams that either won at least played for an ACC championship during his tenure... Md, Wake, GaT, BC. Ask yourself how many of those schools have a better football tradition, bigger stadium, better facilities, better recruiting classes, etc, than Clemson.
The answer is none.
We underachieved, and we looked bad doing it most of the time. We were a finesse team that got smacked in the mouth any time we played somebody that was tough and physical.
He was a nice guy who did some good things to improve facilities and recruiting. But 10 years was long enough.
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Member [22]
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Re: The myth of Tommy Bowden
Jul 30, 2010, 6:18 PM
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Bottom line, check the rings on Dannys fingers and around death valley the championship banners and then we can talk about TB
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110%er [6937]
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Re:Nothing against Danny. but his regular season competition
Jul 30, 2010, 8:00 PM
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was not as tough as the ones TB played. The old Tiger and seven clowns is a thing of the pass in the ACC.
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Member [22]
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Re:Nothing against Danny. but his regular season competition
Jul 30, 2010, 8:07 PM
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Tell Nebraska, Oklahoma, Penn State, West Virginia, Stanford, Maryland of the 80s and even North Carolina and Mac Brown that.
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110%er [6937]
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Re:Do you know the difference between regular season and
Jul 30, 2010, 8:55 PM
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bowl games? How can you compare the ACC of the 80s to the overall caliber of players in the ACC now. Heck just look at the 1st & 2nd rounders that at now picked. Back then CU, UNC and, maybe, Maryland were the only teams that sent anyone.
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Member [22]
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Re:Do you know the difference between regular season and
Jul 30, 2010, 9:01 PM
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Yes I do Peanut, my point is we dominated the ACC and beyond. Get it, with Bowden we could not compete in bowl games and often got embarrased. Yea boy we were real prepared for Bama and Texas TECH werent we. Bowden couldnt tie Dannys shoes as a game day coach.
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110%er [6937]
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Re:Friend, you obviously have a severe comprehension
Jul 30, 2010, 9:12 PM
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problem. I am, in no way comparing TB to Danny. Just saying that TB's regular season schedule was tougher. You have to win those to get to be able to play the Nebraskas, PSU etc. And by the way TB did not have the booger man around. Nothing against Danny Ford. I always liked him.
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Member [22]
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Re:Friend, you obviously have a severe comprehension
Jul 30, 2010, 9:16 PM
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> problem. I am, in no way comparing TB to Danny.
> Just saying that TB's regular season schedule was
> s tougher. You have to win those to get to be able
> to play the Nebraskas, PSU etc. And by the way TB did
> not have the booger man around. Nothing against
> Danny Ford. I always liked him.
Maybe the problem is yours. You want to compare the conference but not the coaching ability. Cant have one without the other.
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110%er [6937]
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Re: I was told that you can't compete with stupidity. Sir
Jul 30, 2010, 9:40 PM
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I defer to your superior intellect.
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Addict [443]
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You're making a total non-point though...
Jul 30, 2010, 9:55 PM
[ in reply to Re:Friend, you obviously have a severe comprehension ] |
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The whole system was different back then and the schedule is irrelevant. You can't look back on what were big regular season wins back then and downgrade them years later.
For Example: I'm not sure winning out with our schedule NOW (even though it's tougher) would get us into the National Championship game (see Cincinnati and Boise St.) but it would have back in Danny Ford's day.
The 80s teams did what they had to do in their system, and then, when they earned their opportunity, they beat "big boys." After you've beaten big boys (Ohio St., Georgia, Nebraska) from all over the country, your regular season schedule is a lot less relevant.
Sorry to be blunt, I just don't think you have a valid point at all.
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110%er [6937]
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Re: I am tired of the anti Bowden crap. I can see your
Jul 30, 2010, 10:06 PM
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point. Some of these kids are never satisfied with anything other than running down ex Clemson coaches, Purnell, Bowden and West. All three were good coaches. West had a doofus for a boss. Really, I don't believe some of these posters are true CU fans.
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Member [22]
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Re: I am tired of the anti Bowden crap. I can see your
Jul 30, 2010, 10:26 PM
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> point. Some of these kids are never satisfied with
> anything other than running down ex Clemson coaches,
> Purnell, Bowden and West. All three were good
> coaches. West had a doofus for a boss. Really, I
> don't believe some of these posters are true CU fans.
Peanut, I do not question your Clemson allegiance, however it is obvious that anyone who does not agree with you is not a Clemson fan. So oh great one please forgive us that disagree
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110%er [6937]
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Re: I am tired of the anti Bowden crap. I can see your***
Jul 30, 2010, 10:29 PM
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110%er [6937]
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All-In [44148]
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110%er [6937]
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Re: He had an ### who he had to answer to. He could have
Jul 30, 2010, 10:44 PM
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been a lot better if not having to work under circumstances where he was continously threaten.
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Addict [443]
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Anything about Tommy Bowden is going to be polarizing
Jul 30, 2010, 11:21 PM
[ in reply to Re: I am tired of the anti Bowden crap. I can see your ] |
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TB did some good things for the school and was treated fairly in my opinion and is set for life financially because of the school's/donor's money.
This subject has been discussed ad nauseum though. When someone posts something like "The Myth of Tommy Bowden"... Well, right there, you know it's going open up some old wounds for fans on both sides.
I believe that coaching is a tough job that is rewarded accurately in terms of salary. I also think fans have every right to question a coach or post their thoughts on a message board like this. I think most of what people write on this board comes from a place of passion for Clemson football even if I disagree with it.
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Orange Blooded [3820]
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Re: Anything about Tommy Bowden is going to be polarizing
Aug 1, 2010, 10:05 AM
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you make some good points, but your over-arching issue is both sad and polarizing in and of itself. T Bowden was not a prostitute - he did not serve up his self-respect - nor that of his family's - for mere money, no matter the ultimate sum. The question that lies before you - and all those who have and print the same opinion of TB - is whether the Clemson community has been fair in its judgment of his accomplishments in the name of this community. T Bowden's record by win % is better than most of those that preceeded him - read Howard, Ingram, Parker and West - he certainly never got us put on probation - read Pell - and unlike Hatfield, made his own national recruiting success instead of living off of others' players. I direct you to the website of www.shakinthesouthland where supposed Clemson bloggers routinely castigate TB as someone 'who can't coach at the bigtime Div 1 level' and who thought "Clemson fans are so gullible'- quite a shot at someone who won 57% of his games, and got the program ranked (final AP) for the first time in over a decade. For those who have defended TB, this question is about what you see in the mirror, and whether you can be proud of that. I personally believe that if the Clemson fan base does not own up to its treatment of T Bowden, and somehow give him his due for what he has done for the program, then it (read: we) has prostituted itself for mere wins, is little different than any other fan base (read: Coots and Tar Heels), and the 'somethin in those hills' (i.e. honor, sportsmanship, and real community) is a distant memory.
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Rock Defender [54]
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Rock Defender [54]
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Rock Defender [54]
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Rock Defender [54]
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LOL! OK, now the truth ....
Jul 30, 2010, 6:30 PM
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You can prove anything with statistics, which you are trying to do, but the reality is, TB had the benefit most seasons of a 12th gimme for an automatic W.
Take 1 cupcake W off that win total every season to make it equal to traditional 11 game regular seasons and your W/L numbers suddenly look pretty weak.
Second, people love to point to a bowl game every year, but in today's game there are actually more bowls some years than teams eligible to even play in a bowl. 6-6 gets you in a bowl, assuming 5 wins vs. D-1 teams.
Not too long ago teams 7-4 didn't get in bowls, even the occasional 8-3 team would miss a bowl if they were a nobody.
Additionally, CU traditionally played in nothing worse than the Peach Bowl, typically the Gator or better, like the Citrus. Yet under TB, the Peach Bowl was the best we played in most years, with a couple of Gators thrown in, and several years in bowl worse than the Peach.
To make matters worse, we usually lost our bowl games under TB to teams we should of stomped.
Third, in addition to the 12th gimme W each year, the ACC has been as weak or weaker than at any time since the early 70s. With the talent we've had, a 12th gimme, and the weakness of the ACC, TB should of won 7 or 8 every year just by showing up.
Fourth, you think what LOOKS like a consistent record on the surface proves TB was consistent. That's like saying a kid with perfect attendance is a good student. Numbers mean zilch unless you dig into them like I've been doing above. More proof of how your numbers are bogus is the fact that every season under TB we had a hot & cold streak. We'd start hot, end cold, or start cold and end hot. That is NOT the mark of a consistent team. Consistent teams don't have 2 & 3 game losing streaks EVERY year!
Fifth, remember CJ's freshman year? CJ & JD blew GaTech off the field. The next week a sub par VT team came into the 'Valley and made CJ & JD look like Pop Warner rejects! Such Jeckyll & Hyde performances were TRADEMARKS of the TB era! We NEVER knew which team would show up on any given Saturday.
Sixth, CU vs. KY in a crappy bowl game. KY with almost the worst D-1 rushing "D" in the country, ranked like 112 I think. CJ & JD, 12 carries total. And embarrassing loss for CU! I hate to tell you, but almost anyone on TNET could of been HC in that game rather than TB and CU kicks KY's ####! NOT consistent coaching!
Face it, we peaked in year 2 of the TB era, then RichRod left and we were terribly inconsistent. The ONLY reason TB lasted as long as he did is because we beat FSU the week after a pathetic Wake team looked like the Cowboys under Jimmy Johnson against us!
Seventh, we lost at least 2 games, maybe 3, because we had a TD called back because our WR's were lined up improperly. This is major college football, not Pop Warner. We had atrocious fundamentals. Consistent teams have SOLID fundamentals.
Eighth, 9 1/2 years under TB and we NEVER had a GOOD/SOLID offensive line! Consistent teams have great, or at least, very solid, line play. That was probably our single biggest weakness during the TB era.
Shall I continue? I could go on & on, there is plenty more, but this is more than enough factually to show your thesis is garbage and you're a TB lover still trying to make a bad coach look good 2 years later!
TB did some good things at CU and turned us around, but he is a terrible X/O's and game day coach.
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Member [22]
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Re: LOL! OK, now the truth ....
Jul 30, 2010, 6:36 PM
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Preach on Blue Caddy Im with you
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CU Guru [1636]
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He was not a legend
Jul 30, 2010, 6:45 PM
[ in reply to LOL! OK, now the truth .... ] |
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But saying he was totally unpredictable is just not true. In his tenure I would say he had two horribly coached games, and that was 2003 UGA and 2006 Kentucky. He did not play to our strengths in those games and I cannot tell you why. His won-loss record speaks for itself. He was not great, but not horrible. He did more good for CU than he did bad. Our recruiting is going well today in large because of Tommy Bowden. He was johnny on the spot when it came to facilities, and recruits wanting to go to a place that is like the Crowne Plaza to them. His domination against South Carolina will likely never be matched by another Clemson coach with that long of a tenure, and say what you want about them, but with the exception of '99, they were not horrible all of those years.
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110%er [6768]
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What coach doesn't want better facilities? Every coach
Jul 30, 2010, 6:49 PM
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in D-1 football would love to have bigger and better facilities. Even the top programs in the country wouldn't turn down upgrades.
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CU Guru [1636]
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In case you missed it
Jul 30, 2010, 7:19 PM
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Our administration was not smart enough to realize this, it took Bowden having to talk about it at his press conferences all of the time to get it done. Barker would have probably rather stored that money away somewhere than have to put a dime into building the west endzone.
And I may be wrong on this, but I believe Danny Ford wanting some sort of facility type thing was a big reason for his downfall with our administration. With what Ford was doing for Clemson, they should have given him whatever he wanted.
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CU Medallion [54079]
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Member [22]
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Re: He was not a legend
Jul 30, 2010, 7:05 PM
[ in reply to He was not a legend ] |
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You are correct, not a legend. I can name you on one hand how many times a Clemson team was not prepared when Danny was there. I can n ame you on one hand how many times we were not prepared on one hand per season when TB was there. Good guy, below avg. coach
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Rock Defender [54]
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I guess you missed the VT blowout, FSU, TexTech, Bama, etc.***
Jul 31, 2010, 12:27 AM
[ in reply to He was not a legend ] |
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Rock Defender [54]
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Oh and the still painful Wake catastrophe!***
Jul 31, 2010, 12:28 AM
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All-Conference [435]
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More truth...
Jul 30, 2010, 7:14 PM
[ in reply to LOL! OK, now the truth .... ] |
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When TB was our coach did it seem like all of our games were either ridiculously close or total blowouts (one way or the other)? Did it also seem we were frequently snatching defeat from the jaws of victory? Or that we had trouble coming back from halftime deficits? There's a good reason you're nodding your head right now. To pass the time while anxiously waiting for the season to start I did a little research into wins and losses during the Bowden era '99-'08.
I counted 117 games played under TB. 80 of 117 games were either decided by 7pts or less (42 games) or 22pts or more (38 games). TBs record was 72-45. Some of the numbers are incomplete because I couldn't find box scores for '99-01 games
*45 Losses
-23 losses were by 7 pts or less. (i picked 7 and not 8 because PAT are near locks while 2pts are a coinflip.
- 5 losses by 8-14 pts
-10 Ls by 15-21pts
-7 Ls by 22+ pts (24, 30, 28, 32, 40, 35, and 47 (ouch))
*Of the 23 one score losses, 16 were by 3 pts or less.
*There were 16 one score losses from '02-'08 (been looking for box scores for '99-01)
-13 of 16 games Clemson was in the lead(9 gm) or tied(4 gm) at the start of 4th qtr
*72 Wins
-19 W by 7 pts or less. (7) by 3 pts or less
-14 W by 8-14 pts
-8 W by 15-21 pts
-31 W by 22+ pts ( 15 gms vs FCS and non-BCS schools like Furman, Citadel FAU, Temple. 13 ACC wins mostly Duke, WFU, UNC) plus 2 S.Car gms.
* There were 15 one score wins from '02-'08
-9 times Clemson was leading at the half. 6 of those 9 Clemson was outscored in the second half But still held on to win.
-5 times Clemson came back from a halftime deficit. 3pts to MD, 3pts. toUSC, 4 pts to MD, 10 pts to Duke, and 14 pts to MIA (OT)
Take what you want from these numbers. I see a team that had a hard time putting teams away, holding leads, and coming back late in the game. It's not all on TB, but a good coach will find a way to win the close ones. TB was 19-23 in one score games. many of the wins had no business being close and many of the losses were lost at the end of the game. By contrast BC was 23-13 in 7pt or less games during the same time period.
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110%er [6937]
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Re:A win is a win. They don't put astrisks beside them....***
Jul 30, 2010, 9:47 PM
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Orange Blooded [2521]
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No reason to hate TB, he left us better than he found us,
Jul 30, 2010, 10:22 PM
[ in reply to LOL! OK, now the truth .... ] |
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but it was time for him to go. It was completely obvious by the end that 7 to 9 wins was all you were going to get from him.
We should just thank TB for the effort, for hiring Dabo, and leaving without showing his #### or cursing us ( a la Ken Hatfield)
Clemsnman
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Rock Defender [54]
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Don't hate him, hate his coaching.***
Jul 31, 2010, 12:30 AM
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CU Guru [1636]
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You know, even Boston College fans..
Jul 30, 2010, 10:51 PM
[ in reply to LOL! OK, now the truth .... ] |
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This statement you made right here:
To make matters worse, we usually lost our bowl games under TB to teams we should of stomped.
Boston College fans....
....there are a few of them out there, I have run across a few on the internet. They will even admit that their bowl record has been good recently due to one thing: They are almost always the favored team, and do not go to bowls they deserve. You want to know why? Because the bowl selection committees know that BC fans will not put fannies in the seats. The exact OPPOSITE is the case for Clemson. Here are some examples for you from the Tommy Bowden era:
1999 Peach Bowl: Miss State 17 Clemson 7
Final records: Miss State 10-2, Clemson 6-6
Miss State was just better, they SHOULD have won that game.
2000 Gator Bowl: VT (Vick) 41 CU (Woody) 20
Final Records: VT 11-1, CU 9-3, with a VERY easy schedule. This was a game where the Gator Bowl knew we would sell tickets, a Dantzler vs Vick match up, and VT was obviously the better team coming in, and SHOULD HAVE won.
2001 Humanitarian Bowl: Clemson 49 La Tech 24
No explanation needed. We begged our way into this bowl to play La Tech, should have stomped them, and did stomp them.
2002 Champ Sports Bowl: Texas Tech 55 CU 15
Records: CU 7-6, Texas Tech 9-5
This is a team that we knew was going to score points on us. We had a horrible offensive line, and Whitehurst was running for his life, and our offense could not keep up with theirs. They were the better team coming in, maybe not so much so record wise, but everyone knew they were better. They had wins against Ole Miss 42-28, New Mexico 49-0, Texas A&M 48-47, Mizzou 52-38, Baylor 62-11, Oklahoma State 49-24, and Texas 42-38. They had a loss 51-48 to NC State, while NC State beat us 38-6. Like I said, maybe not record wise, but they were far superior to us.
2003 Chic Fil A Bowl: Clemson 27 #6 Tennessee 14
Records: CU 9-4, UT 10-3
This is a game where it looked like UT was the better team, and were the favorites, but we knocked them off.
2005 Champ Sports Bowl: Clemson 19 Colorado 10
Records: CU Tigers 8-4 CU Buffs 7-6
Both teams had the same number of wins coming in, so this was fairly evenly matched, and we pulled off the win.
2006 Music City Bowl: Kentucky 28 Clemson 20
Both teams finished with 8-5 records.
This is a game that we should have won, but I saw this loss coming for some reason. This game, along with the 2003 UGA game are the two games I have said were TB's two worst coaching jobs. He did not play to our strengths in those games. This team had a horrible rush defense, and he did not even try and run Davis and Spiller against them. My explanation to that is after VT and Beamer exposed in late October by showing you just had to stack the box to beat us, and we started losing, Bowden tried something different. But whatever he tried, obviously did not work.
2007 Chic Fil A Bowl Auburn 23 Clemson 20 in overtime
Both teams finished with even records at 9-4, and it showed on the scoreboard at the end of regulation how even they were when the game was tied. This was one of those games where it was a shame somebody had to lose. No blame really goes to anybody for this hard fought game. The only blame goes to Auburn's chop blocking team. That did have an impact in this game, and early on. Still hard to accept this loss because of that.
So, in Bowden's Clemson bowl history summary, since you said, To make matters worse, we usually lost our bowl games under TB to teams we should of stomped.
I would say that in 1999 and 2000 we would have had to pull off huge upsets, and what most expected to happen, pretty much did happen.
In 2001 is the only game where your statement makes sense, and we did "stomp" that team.
2002 and 2003 are games where we were underdogs as well, and finished 1-1 with one upset win.
2005-2007 were all pretty even, and we finished 1-2. We should have played to our strengths and beaten Kentucky, and without Auburn's chop blocking, who knows how that game could have turned out....
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Rock Defender [54]
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LOL! spin, denial, Kool Aid, must be nice in your world!***
Jul 31, 2010, 12:32 AM
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CU Guru [1636]
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Re: LOL! spin, denial, Kool Aid, must be nice in your world!***
Jul 31, 2010, 12:39 AM
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AKA, I have no comebacks to prove dude wrong about that.
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CU Medallion [58700]
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Tommy was not a bad guy or a bad coach.
Jul 30, 2010, 6:58 PM
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He was good at winning 7-8 games, which isn't bad, but a complete failure at getting us to the championship, or even very close.
He did do a lot of good at Clemson; I hope he coaches again and I wish him well.
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CU Medallion [55767]
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Re: Tommy was not a bad guy or a bad coach.
Jul 30, 2010, 7:25 PM
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ut we all already knew that half the teams out there lost each week. We was sick and tired of being sick and tired of being in the half that did lose and hearing about it. Nuff said !!!
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CU Medallion [58700]
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Uh . . . well . . . uh . . . Okay.***
Jul 30, 2010, 8:52 PM
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All-TigerNet [14090]
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Rock Defender [54]
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CU Medallion [58700]
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All opinions are welcome.***
Jul 31, 2010, 2:10 AM
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CU Medallion [55767]
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Re: The myth of Tommy Bowden
Jul 30, 2010, 7:16 PM
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And you wrote all that B/S up for what. I promice I'm not trying to be rude or arrogant. But why does all that matter now. He is long gone and has been replace by a coach that has won a division title his first full year. I think Tommy done a great job of getting our program back to better than par standards. But i don't believe he was right for getting us ahead of the curve back to a big time program. And it was costing to much to replace all the dad gum grass he was eating. Thanks for your trouble, but it was really unnecessary.
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110%er [6937]
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Re: Right on. Enough has been said.***
Jul 30, 2010, 7:57 PM
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Orange Blooded [3820]
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Re: The myth of Tommy Bowden
Jul 31, 2010, 1:34 PM
[ in reply to Re: The myth of Tommy Bowden ] |
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if you think it was unnecessary, then check out the www.shakinthesouthland website - he continues to spew vile at every opportunity - and then some
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Orange Blooded [2303]
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Re: The myth of Tommy Bowden
Jul 30, 2010, 7:49 PM
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WHO CARES???? He's gone. Let it GO.
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CU Guru [1636]
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All-In [26650]
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How bout these numbers
Jul 30, 2010, 8:28 PM
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26 - 8 vs weak Tobacco Road schools
17 - 26 vs ACC schools outside of Tobacco Road
1 - 6 vs SEC schools besides the coots
TB survived for so long because he feasted on UNC, WF, Dook, NCSU, and the coots.
He was a paper Tiger.
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CU Medallion [54079]
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Lost 20 games by less than 4 points. Game day decisions,
Jul 30, 2010, 8:42 PM
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such as pulling Merriweathe on what appeared to be a game winning drive to everyone there:kicking off to BC to open the second half after they had run one kickoff back for a td in the first half and nearly a second one as well; calling for a pass play at NC State on a 2 point conversion attempt, down 2, after Jasmin had just carried the ball about 5 out of 6 plays for a minimum of 5 yards per carry and run it in from the 8 untouched, going ape on referree in a 50 point win ( probably led to all the bogus calls we have since gotten ); and switching all our coaches around after best 4 game stretch in his tenure which had wins over FSU, a 63-17 win over a favored UCS, and a waxing of Tennessee.
These are just a few of his game day decisions that cost us big time. I could think of many more given time.
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110%er [6321]
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I think he got what he deserved.....
Jul 30, 2010, 8:45 PM
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Just saying...
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110%er [6851]
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Let it go so so we can move on!***
Jul 30, 2010, 8:59 PM
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CU Guru [1636]
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Example of ignorant post
Jul 30, 2010, 11:11 PM
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Let it go so so we can move on!
I am sure Dabo and the team are reading this thread just shaking their heads saying "We just can't let it go, we just can't let it go!"
I made the original post after reading this post:
http://thetigernet.com/forums/message.jspa?messageID=9314729
I got to thinking how true these types of statements are, and started looking up some facts.
I apologize to every person in Clemson nation right now since the team will not some into the North Texas game prepared, because of this thread!
*Snickers*
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Addict [443]
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All-TigerNet [14751]
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Why didn't anyone jump on him after he was let go?***
Jul 30, 2010, 9:08 PM
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Scout Team [166]
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Re: Why didn't anyone jump on him after he was let go?***
Jul 30, 2010, 11:05 PM
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Well, because the bottom line is that CTB was only good for 7-8 wins a season by the stats put forward at the beginning of this thread. With all the advantages of a major program, including 1-2 gimme wins a season, a sleepwalker coach should be able to match that recird (not saying I could do it, but I'm also not paid to coach).
As a Clemson fan, 7-8 wins every year is not acceptable. Will there be some mediocre years in any coach's tenure - of course. However, as a fan I expect those to be counterbalanced by some great years. I don't recall CTB having a great year since he left Tulane.
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Scout Team [166]
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Re: Why didn't anyone jump on him after he was let go?***
Jul 30, 2010, 11:08 PM
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@ truetiger1998 - I know your questuion was rhetorical. My response was aimed at a different audience.
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Orange Blooded [3820]
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The myth of T Bowden - what they don't want u 2 know
Jul 31, 2010, 12:11 AM
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quick fact on the glory of Clemson football, especially for those who remember the "glory days". D Ford took over the program and led the Tigers to rankings in the final Top 20 in 7 out of 11 years (and 7 out of the last 9), with 4 top 10 finishes. Danny also had a bit of a good head start though as the Tigers had been in the final Top 20 for both of the 2 years previous to him becoming coach in 1979 (full year), with a Top 10 finish in 1978. T Bowden's teams were less successful - surely. In his 9 full seasons they placed in the final Top 25 only 4 years with no Top 10 finishes. But T Bowden also took over a program that had not been in the final Top 20 for 7 full years, nor in the final Top 10 in 10 years. During the lean years (9) between their last Top 10 finish (1990) and T Bowden's first (1999), other ACC schools made 11 appearances in the final Top 10 and another 10 appearances in the remainder of the Top 25. Clemson had merely 3 appearances in the Top 25 during this time of West's and Hatfield's tenures. Quite frankly people, where is the love for a guy who took over a program on a respirator?
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Rock Defender [54]
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So what, 10 years later with loads of talent he still
Jul 31, 2010, 12:38 AM
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struggled to win 8 games in a 12 game regular season!
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Orange Blooded [3820]
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Re: So what, 10 years later with loads of talent he still
Jul 31, 2010, 7:34 AM
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yeah....T Bowden was responsible for getting you that talent after West and Hatfield emptied the bank - it's just your kind of arrogance that Clemson doesn't need; it's remindful more of a Coot or Tar Heel fan
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CU Guru [1002]
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Okay, but in 9 years TB couldn't get a 10 win season, he
Jul 31, 2010, 12:13 AM
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couldn't win the ACC (or the Atlantic for that matter), and he never got us over 'the hump'. You want to compare him to Danny Ford, well Danny Ford had 4 season of 10 wins or greater, 5 ACC Championships, and a National Championship (in 11 years) - he had actually DONE something.
I'm not saying TB was the worst coach in the world by any means, but he wasn't the coach that was going to get us where we need to be if we are going to be considered a 'football' school in this day in age.
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Associate AD [838]
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If you're saying 7.5 wins a year is a good thing
Jul 31, 2010, 3:27 AM
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in one of the weakest conference and given 2 of which per season are creampuffs, then you are a. accepting of SOLID mediocrity or b. delusional.
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CU Guru [1636]
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Please read this
Jul 31, 2010, 3:40 PM
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Some of you need a reading comprehension course. Find one post that I made in this entire thread where I said 7.5 wins was good, find me one, and I will give you two of the extra tickets I have to the Auburn game this year. 7.5 wins is average/mediocre. This was my main point:
OK, you all say he had that one horrible game every year. The only real scratch my head season I can see is 2003. In nine years, Bowden lost to a team with a losing record four times. The 7-5 2001 team lost to a 5-7 UVA team, the 9-4 2003 team got drilled by a 5-7 Wake team, which was probably the biggest head scratching game of his career, the other losses to teams with losing records were at least close games. The 6-5 2004 team lost to a 2-9 Duke team. That Duke game was a three point loss, and was also sand-witched right between an emotional overtime win against Miami at the orange bowl, and a blowout brawl game against rival South Carolina. Even one of Danny Ford's best teams in history in 1989, who beat a highly rated FSU team on the road, and drilled West Virginia and South Carolina at the end of the year, lost a game at Duke. Granted, it was an 8 win Duke team coached by Spurrier, but a loss to Duke is a loss to Duke.
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Legend [16374]
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TB was NOT a game day coach by any means...
Jul 31, 2010, 1:56 PM
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He was a fantastic recruiter, helped take our facilities forward, and did not embarrass us off the field like some coaches of other programs. His name also helped bring back national attention that had waned away over the prior decade, though I have to give credit there to Bobby, not Tommy, for that one.
We won games under TB because we had a lot of talent, which he helped bring in. As far as game day coaching though, he was totally inept. It seemed like he would actually help our team lose momentum at halftime.
I referred to it as the "Vanilla Pudding" halftime speech. Too often it seems our team would emerge from the locker room at halftime and simply go through the motions in the second half. This was especially true against Auburn in the Chick-fil-A. It was almost as if TB would coax the players out of any enthusiasm and emotion and return them to the field flat and lifeless.
He could recruit young men extremely well. But I don't think he had a clue as to how their minds operate on game day. He knew nothing of getting the most out of the youthful emotion of college aged players when it mattered, of playing the hot hand, and game planning for sixty minutes, and that's why he's gone.
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CU Medallion [54079]
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Last summer a group of us at lunch started naming the top 20
Aug 1, 2010, 12:05 PM
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game day coching blunders we have seen at CU. Tommy had 15 of them.
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Commissioner [967]
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I see a good summary of his tenure here in your post
Aug 1, 2010, 11:47 AM
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Close, almost, & heartbreaking.
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Team Captain [453]
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Test your hypotesis in reverse
Aug 1, 2010, 3:04 PM
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List the teams he beat and their average records.
I think your data will look less impressive in that light. Sure he did beat a team about once a year we shouldn't have such as FSU, but in general he beat very few teams that he wasn't favored to beat.
I certainly think he put down a foundation for success, but I think he had taken Clemson as far as he could. He did a decent job here, but more was expected the further he got into his tenure and he wasn't improving, just staying status quo.
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CU Guru [1636]
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You pretty much proved my point
Aug 1, 2010, 4:33 PM
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in general he beat very few teams that he wasn't favored to beat.
That was the whole point I was trying to make with the original message. I read all of these posts where people say "Tommy Bowden had all of these oh my gosh games, or at least one oh my gosh game, at least once a year."
In nine full years he lost to four teams with losing records. Twice to Wake Forest, who was just his nemesis for whatever reason. Once to Duke, in a game that was scheduled right between an emotional overtime win at the orange bowl in Miami, and a home game against South Carolina. And once to UVA who was 5-7 when we finished the year 7-5, which really isn't that HUGE of an upset.
Wake Forest was just Tommy Bowden's nemesis. NC State was Danny Ford's nemesis, Ford went 1-3 all time against #### Sheridan at NC State. Steve Spurrier never won a game in the SEC in Starkville, Mississippi, against Mississippi State, until he coached at South Carolina in 2006. He was 0-2 against Miss State in Starkville while at Florida.
It seems like every coach just has their nemesis. I hope to God Dabo's is not going to be Maryland. It's hard enough dealing with their thug fans and players in basketball.
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Addict [422]
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Tommy was a good coach, I'd eveen say a very good coach
Aug 1, 2010, 5:02 PM
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He was fired because awful is not the enemy of great. When a team is awful everyone sees it and knows something needs to be done.
Very good is the enemy of great, very good teams are always close. Always one play away.
We just couldn't get from good to great.
Tommy could have been a great football coach imho, but he was too good off a guy. Anyone around in the RR days knows what was missing in practice the last few years.
And Dabo is a nice guy, but he has a fire in his gut..a fire that xCTB didnt have.
That said, I am not sure Dabo knows X's and O's as good as xCTB does, not yet....but sometimes passion and fire can take you a loooong way
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