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CU Guru [1187]
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Maybe it's been asked on here, but why do evangelical Christians support
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May 18, 2024, 11:42 AM
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Trump on matters of faith when Biden by all accounts seems to be a devout, disciplined Christian? Does it come down to stances on abortion? Or some LGBTQ stance?
I don't get it.
Not a Biden supporter - just trying to follow the logic.
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All-In [25204]
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How did he meet 'Dr.' Jill...? I believe it's more about policy than religion.***
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May 18, 2024, 11:48 AM
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All-TigerNet [13420]
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Oculus Spirit [81949]
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"you can't be Christian and pro-abortion"
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May 18, 2024, 12:25 PM
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I don't recall that in the bible anywhere.
But y'all make up your own rules.
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Starter [366]
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Funny how abortion isn't mentioned once in the Bible***
May 18, 2024, 12:48 PM
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Orange Blooded [2128]
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Re: Funny how abortion isn't mentioned once in the Bible***
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May 18, 2024, 1:13 PM
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I don’t think abortion needed to be mentioned in the Bible because the people would not consider it morally. Also, I don’t think abortion was a medical possibility when the Bible was inspired or written down. Just because something isn’t mentioned in the Bible doesn’t mean it is something good or something bad, but we should be able to use the basic teachings in the Bible to know what things are right and what are wrong.
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Athletic Dir [860]
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Re: Funny how abortion isn't mentioned once in the Bible***
May 18, 2024, 2:44 PM
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Abortion has been around longer than the Bible, both with medicine/poisons and physical devices. Biblically, there isn't a soul until the quickening.
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110%er [7413]
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Re: Funny how abortion isn't mentioned once in the Bible***
May 18, 2024, 8:24 PM
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The Bible is replete with accounts about people doing horrible things to each other. That doesn’t mean that the Bible condones such behavior.
I’m not aware of a biblical instance where abortion is condoned. Feel free to enlighten me.
(The OT and the extreme violence that the Bible condoned in the Book of Joshua is a non-abortion topic. Better discussed in TNet’s Religion section.)
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Athletic Dir [860]
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Re: Funny how abortion isn't mentioned once in the Bible***
May 18, 2024, 8:52 PM
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Leviticus is very comprehensive. It has rules and penalties borrowed from Hammurabi as well as many others the Hebrews came up with. If it was important, it would be there. Abortion through one means or another was common in the time of Moses, especially for nomadic women (like the Hebrews after Egypt) who couldn't afford to carry around more than one infant.
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All-In [42743]
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You're right. It's not condoned in there.
May 20, 2024, 8:30 PM
[ in reply to Re: Funny how abortion isn't mentioned once in the Bible*** ] |
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But there is a passage about stoning one's child to death if he is disobedient. Deuteronomy 21:18-21.
And don't "der herp Old Testament doesn't count!". If you adhere to or believe ANYTHING from the Old Testament, then you don't get to throw that #### out.
Stoning disobedient kids. Let's hear the defense.
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Orange Blooded [4063]
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All-TigerNet [11751]
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Re: Funny how abortion isn't mentioned once in the Bible***
May 20, 2024, 11:54 AM
[ in reply to Funny how abortion isn't mentioned once in the Bible*** ] |
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What's even more strange is you're looking for a word in the Bible that didn't orginate until 1200 to 1500 years after the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament) was even started and over 500 years after the crucifixion of Jesus.
FYI, it's Latin and was first known to become a word around 1537 with a meaning of miscarriage.
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All-TigerNet [13420]
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CU Guru [1493]
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Re: What about Catholic?***
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May 18, 2024, 1:04 PM
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I was about to say Catholicism doesn’t really follow the Bible at all. The Bible says pre marital sex is a sin along with lust and promiscuity. Let’s be honest 95% of the women having abortions aren’t married and are having an abortion out of convenience rather than life saving measures.
I don’t believe in the God of the Bible but I doubt God would condone such behavior.
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Orange Blooded [4063]
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Re: What about Catholic?***
May 18, 2024, 4:24 PM
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Where does the Bible say premarital sex is a sin? Chapter and verse please.
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All-TigerNet [11751]
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Re: What about Catholic?***
May 18, 2024, 5:52 PM
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The strong desire for sexual intimacy should only be fulfilled within the bonds of marriage between a man and woman (1 Cor. 7:36–38). Every other context for sexual intimacy is sin. This means that sexual activity before marriage—which includes sexual intercourse, and by extension, every kind of romantic activity involving one’s sexual parts—is prohibited by God.
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Orange Blooded [4063]
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Re: What about Catholic?***
May 18, 2024, 7:33 PM
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Lol. That passage is referring to a father not allowing his daughter to marry. Nice try. 😆
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All-TigerNet [11751]
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Re: What about Catholic?***
May 19, 2024, 11:33 PM
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In the context that all women are someone's daughter, all women should not have sex until they are married per the scripture (same for the sons). Sorry, but Paul wasn't married and had no children so he wasn't talking about a daughter during his teachings.
It's obvious you haven't read it or in fairness, you have no interest. Just a thought, maybe you could delve into the Bible, it could possibly change your life.
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Orange Blooded [4063]
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Re: What about Catholic?***
May 20, 2024, 7:42 AM
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I asked for chapter and verse showing it was a sin to have "premarital sex" and you have failed to do so. You failed and LOL at your attempt to rewrite the Bible. Too funny. 😆 🤣 😂
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All-TigerNet [11751]
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Re: What about Catholic?***
May 20, 2024, 8:30 AM
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Your ignorance and moral liberalism never cease to amaze.
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Orange Blooded [4063]
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Re: What about Catholic?***
May 20, 2024, 8:48 AM
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Still no chapter and verse? LOL.
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CU Guru [1097]
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Re: "you can't be Christian and pro-abortion"
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May 18, 2024, 5:02 PM
[ in reply to "you can't be Christian and pro-abortion" ] |
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I don't recall that in the bible anywhere.
But y'all make up your own rules.
Said by a non Christian
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CU Guru [1193]
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Re: "you can't be Christian and pro-abortion"
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May 18, 2024, 5:23 PM
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I mean Paul and Jesus weren't Christian either. What's your point?
If you could have asked them, they would have told you point blank they were Jewish! lol
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All-TigerNet [11751]
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Re: "you can't be Christian and pro-abortion"
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May 18, 2024, 5:54 PM
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Except Paul became a Christian after the death and resurrection of Christ. See the correlation?
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CU Guru [1193]
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Re: "you can't be Christian and pro-abortion"
May 18, 2024, 8:19 PM
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This would be news to him. He didn’t think this was a new religion
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Oculus Spirit [81949]
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Orange Blooded [3152]
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Re: "you can't be Christian and pro-abortion"
May 19, 2024, 11:43 AM
[ in reply to "you can't be Christian and pro-abortion" ] |
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No where in the Bible does it state "Thou shalt not view internet pornography" but I bet you could hazard a guess as to the Biblical interpretation of such activity.
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Athletic Dir [860]
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Re: "you can't be Christian and pro-abortion"
May 19, 2024, 4:57 PM
[ in reply to "you can't be Christian and pro-abortion" ] |
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When I joined a Southern Baptist Church in 1976 or 1977, the SBC had been publicly pro-choice for years. Check the history on evangelical churches supporting abortion as a choice years before Roe v Wade - they considered it to be a choice and something the catholics had a problem with. We didn't hear anything about abortion until the run-up to the 1980 election, when it suddenly became a big issue.
A long con game against gullible people by the far right, as a way to build numbers to support an underground racist agenda. Trump is the result, an icon to put all of white grievance up onto a platform for the morons to worship.
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Athletic Dir [889]
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Orange Blooded [3953]
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Re: lol at Bidens Faith.
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May 18, 2024, 12:49 PM
[ in reply to lol at Bidens Faith. ] |
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The "hookers" that Trump cheated on his wife with said he doesn't wear condoms. He has paid for plenty of abortions. Not only that, he isn't religious at all.
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CU Guru [1493]
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Re: lol at Bidens Faith.
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May 18, 2024, 1:05 PM
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Let’s be real, are hookers the most reliable source of information?
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Hall of Famer [22490]
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Hookers are more reliable sources of information than Trump.
May 18, 2024, 1:12 PM
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Has anybody checked on the use of bleach and UV lights up the butt to kill the Covid?
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All-In [25204]
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Did it work...? What's your verdict? Your boyfriend didn't show up...? So sad.***
May 20, 2024, 11:35 PM
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Orange Blooded [3953]
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Re: lol at Bidens Faith.
May 18, 2024, 1:22 PM
[ in reply to Re: lol at Bidens Faith. ] |
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Definitely. They are relaible in this scenario.
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CU Guru [1193]
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Re: lol at Bidens Faith.
May 18, 2024, 3:17 PM
[ in reply to Re: lol at Bidens Faith. ] |
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I mean ya boi is the one sleeping with them lol
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Starter [366]
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Hall of Famer [22490]
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Butker reminded us of all of the "deadly sins" mentioned in The Bible.
May 18, 2024, 1:05 PM
[ in reply to Re: lol at Bidens Faith. ] |
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Trump checks all of those boxes.
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Athletic Dir [860]
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Re: lol at Bidens Faith.
May 18, 2024, 2:46 PM
[ in reply to Re: lol at Bidens Faith. ] |
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Plenty of rumors about why Fred sent him away to military school. One is a simple pregnancy/abortion. The other rumored reasons are worse.
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CU Medallion [60523]
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I really dont care. Make good policy, as he did
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May 19, 2024, 8:42 AM
[ in reply to Re: lol at Bidens Faith. ] |
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deregulate small business, pardon low level drug crimes, help make food supply and energy a top policy. All of these things mean more to me than him being a “Christian”
The woke liberal creeps that follow Biden Harris and their ilk are the antithesis of my being.
All those things above mean zero to liberals. So I want Trump.
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All-In [42743]
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Trump is pro abortion and he's an atheist. What's your argument here?***
May 18, 2024, 1:06 PM
[ in reply to lol at Bidens Faith. ] |
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All-TigerNet [13420]
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Maybe his policies are better than the other heathen.
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May 18, 2024, 1:10 PM
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Maybe that’s why they support him. Idk.
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Orange Blooded [3953]
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Re: Maybe his policies are better than the other heathen.
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May 18, 2024, 1:23 PM
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You don't know his policies other than the border.
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All-In [42743]
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All-TigerNet [13420]
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Because the OP said this:
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May 18, 2024, 1:54 PM
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“Biden by all accounts seems to be a devout, disciplined Christian”
And I posted a link showing that Biden is a fkn clown and the OP is ignorant.
I often give a 2 for 1 in my posts, and TNetters should be more appreciative.
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CU Guru [1193]
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Re: Because the OP said this:
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May 18, 2024, 8:20 PM
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Only one candidate paints his face orange, we know who the clown is
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CU Guru [1493]
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Re: Trump is pro abortion and he's an atheist. What's your argument here?***
May 18, 2024, 4:23 PM
[ in reply to Trump is pro abortion and he's an atheist. What's your argument here?*** ] |
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I didn’t know Trump was pro abortion. I’m atheist and pro abortion under 8 weeks. Although, being honest here, if you get an abortion out of convenience, I do believe it is wrong but it’s your choice at that point. My children’s mother and I had an abortion as soon as we found out she was pregnant, right around 4 weeks. She still hasn’t gotten over it and our 12 year relationship ended shortly after.
That being said, if what you say is true Trump and I have some things in common. Idgaf about his hooker exploits. At all. He’s getting my vote. If he wins and it goes badly, I’ll eat the crow.
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Athletic Dir [860]
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Re: Trump is pro abortion and he's an atheist. What's your argument here?***
May 18, 2024, 8:14 PM
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In the past, he's said he was the most pro-choice person ever. More than once. He took on public views to get poor dumb fools to vote for him. He's basically pandering to racists, but giving them cover with all the other crap including abortion. Too bad for all those fools, though. All are headed for the lake of fire.
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110%er [7413]
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Neither Trump nor his evangelical supporters claim that Trump is evangelical
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May 18, 2024, 8:37 PM
[ in reply to Trump is pro abortion and he's an atheist. What's your argument here?*** ] |
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The reason why evangelicals support Trump is because his campaign promises in support of Christianity have been backed up by his policies as President during his first term.
Trump is not, nor has he ever been, a blue collar American. Yet, blue collar Americans support Trump despite his privileged upbringing. Guess why.
Biden parades around as a devout Christian. His actual policies are unfriendly towards Christians and Christian beliefs. Guess why Biden isn’t resonating with Christians.
Biden claims to come from a modest upbringing. I believe him in this part of his message. Yet, his policies are unfriendly to blue collar workers and the big picture environment upon which blue collar workers rely for their livelihood. Guess hy Biden is not as popular as Trump with blue collar voters.
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Athletic Dir [860]
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Re: Neither Trump nor his evangelical supporters claim that Trump is evangelical
May 18, 2024, 8:44 PM
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So many of you who live in bubbles forget about everybody who isn't white. Trump is popular with WHITE evangelicals and WHITE blue collar workers. Guess what else was popular with both groups until the government cracked down -- lynching.
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All-In [25204]
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Go succor a Richard.***
May 20, 2024, 11:39 PM
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Oculus Spirit [81949]
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All-Pro [657]
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I guess I'm an evangelical Christian.
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May 18, 2024, 1:27 PM
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I don't really know what that means. But I probably fit the bill as one who confesses Christ as King and Savior and Lord and believes he will one day return to claim that which is his.
As such, I can't get on board with Trump. And I can't get on board with Biden. And I'm okay with that. I'll pray for either man. I will likely vote for neither one.
I've read how the apostles and disciples were usually pushed to the margins of society, called morons and dreamers and criminals, and eventually tossed in jail or sent away or just killed outright.
In other words, their participation in government and society was eventually no longer welcome, and thus curtailed; their voices, silenced.
Eventually, our faith runs at odds with our civic participation. As a journalist, my faith and my job were always in tension with one another. I did my job as unto the Lord. And yet, I often felt my job was at odds with the kingdom. And there were many days when I could not reconcile the two. And so I walked by faith.
And he has proven faithful to me.
Why, then, do we as Christians find it so shocking to be at odds with our culture, and our leaders?
It's as if being disenfranchised and on the margins *isn't* the lot of Christ followers.
That's why I don't worry with Trump or Biden. They're minor players in a brief era of an eternal story.
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CU Medallion [58931]
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Biden is not an evangelical, and his beliefs differ quite a bit from theirs.***
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May 18, 2024, 1:34 PM
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Orange Blooded [3953]
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Re: Biden is not an evangelical, and his beliefs differ quite a bit from theirs.***
May 18, 2024, 1:38 PM
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What about Trump's beliefs compared to theirs?
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CU Medallion [58931]
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I'm not sure what Trump's beliefs are, but his positions more closely align with
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May 18, 2024, 1:44 PM
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those of evangelicals. No big mystery there.
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All-Pro [657]
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I'm not sure they do.
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May 18, 2024, 1:49 PM
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That's like saying Hitler's views aligned closely with Bonhoeffer's. Or Leo X's views aligned closely with Luther's.
No, I'm not comparing Trump to Hitler or Biden to Leo X.
I'm saying that as a Christian who has put his entire faith in Christ, I see very little of my ethic, and the faith that shapes that ethic, in either of those men.
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CU Medallion [58931]
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I agree with that. Neither reflect the values of evangelical Christianity.***
May 18, 2024, 2:53 PM
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All-TigerNet [11751]
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Re: I'm not sure they do.
May 18, 2024, 5:59 PM
[ in reply to I'm not sure they do. ] |
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So are you saying, it's OK for Christ to accept the LBGQT comminity but not Trump?
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All-Pro [657]
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I don't care what Trump does re: LGBTQ+.
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May 18, 2024, 6:15 PM
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And I don't care what Biden does with guns, or Israel/Hamas. Or the border. I've been to the border many times and it's not at all what you see on the news or read online. It just isn't.
And I don't care what Trump does with abortion. Goodness. As if the President can change hearts and minds around that topic.
What's broken isn't our system of government. It's our expectations of that system. We put waaaaaay too much weight on who the dern President is.
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All-Conference [433]
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Re: I don't care what Trump does re: LGBTQ+.
May 20, 2024, 10:45 AM
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Amen A1A! When it comes to the "problems" of the world, we pretty much have that surrounded. Solutions? not so much. The bigger question is whether or not the government would be the solution to those problems. Traditionally, the answer would be yes from the Dems and no from the Reps. I'm not sure that's the case any longer.
Politics thrives when the nation is in "crisis" mode. Therefore, everything must be a crisis. Or at least, the crisis du jour. Crisis gets me power and money. That being said, what do the polls say? all these hot button, litmus test "issues" become the frame for what they say and how we decide. It breaks it down to a simple for/against decision. If only the solution could be that simple.
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All-In [25204]
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You're right about the border. It's actually much worse. "Been to the border..."
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May 20, 2024, 11:44 PM
[ in reply to I don't care what Trump does re: LGBTQ+. ] |
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Go frickin' live there. Try Tuscon/Nogales for a start. I know how bad it was '76...
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All-Pro [657]
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I lived near the border for about a decade.
May 22, 2024, 12:13 PM
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To be specific, a short drive from the Rio Grande Valley. And as a member of the media, I can assure you that when the cameras went on, the rhetoric shifted from one of maintenance to one of crisis.
That's not to diminish the scale and scope of the human element -- it can swell to a humanitarian crisis in a hurry, depending on surges. And it's not like human populations are shrinking.
But the narrative around the topic is generally visceral because it is political, and overarching all of it is a fight for funding - more boots on the ground, a wall, detainment facilities ... etc.
I wasn't around Nogales in the mid-70s, but, the fact that you're mentioning how bad things were 50 years ago suggests the problem is not existential, given Arizona remains solidly in the union, and tends to vote overwhelmingly Republican.
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Orange Blooded [3953]
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CU Medallion [58931]
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Immigration, gun rights, crime, economy, parental rights, etc..
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May 18, 2024, 2:51 PM
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You know, things that are important to evangelicals. You act as if this is some kind of confounding mystery, but it's not. It's transparent and self-evident. They are willing to overlook his moral transgressions and ethical shortcomings as long as he is fighting for those things and perhaps more importantly, against those who disagree with them on those issues.
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Orange Blooded [3953]
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Re: Immigration, gun rights, crime, economy, parental rights, etc..
May 18, 2024, 3:10 PM
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I am just wondering what Trump has in common and why him?
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CU Medallion [58931]
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The main thing is they both see liberalism, and particularly liberal
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May 18, 2024, 6:38 PM
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Democrats, as the enemy. Trying to parse this out issue by issue and finding some religious, moral incongruencies is pointless and meaningless. There is no "aha!" or "gotcha!" there.
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Legend [18039]
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CU Medallion [58931]
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That's probably true. Given the two choices, it's pretty clear and obvious why
May 18, 2024, 6:32 PM
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evangelicals support him over Biden, and why they are willing to overlook his moral faiings.
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Legend [18039]
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Because they are beholden to their politics more than their faith.***
May 18, 2024, 6:46 PM
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110%er [7413]
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Re: Because they are beholden to their politics more than their faith.***
May 18, 2024, 8:40 PM
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Care to elaborate?
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110%er [7413]
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Re: Because they are beholden to their politics more than their faith.***
May 18, 2024, 8:49 PM
[ in reply to Because they are beholden to their politics more than their faith.*** ] |
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Oops! I responded above to a previous post of yours.
Trump is, IMO, more beholden to politics than his faith. Same with Biden. Same with RFK Jr. Same as with Newsome, Whitmer, M.Obama.
So, from whom among the above flawed candidates do the evangelicals choose to vote?
(*). To the guy whose current pro-Christian policy proposals most closely align with the values that evangelicals hold most dear. To the guy whose past actions (when in a prominent governing role -or- as the spouse of a person who was in a prominent governing role) lend credibility to his current statements re policy intentions.
You know which person is that guy.
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CU Medallion [58931]
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Legend [18039]
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based solely on their politics, not their faith***
May 18, 2024, 10:12 PM
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CU Medallion [58931]
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Every decision evangelicals make is not a religious one. They make choices every
May 18, 2024, 10:39 PM
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day that don't involve their faith. That includes voting for people that don't share their faith or people they may disagree with on certain issues.
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Legend [18039]
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Sure, but being evangelical doesn't matter in that case...
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May 18, 2024, 11:38 PM
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it's a meaningless label without faith being part of it. The problem is many evangelicals often hide behind the idea it's their belief/faith that compels them to certain political beliefs, when it's the opposite. Case in point, support of Trump. There's no religious/faith based argument for supporting him as an evangelical. There IS a political argument which they tend to share so they support him.
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CU Medallion [58931]
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Just my opinion based on my experience ... I have many good friends who are
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May 19, 2024, 11:10 AM
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evangelicals, and I discuss this with them all of the time, and I can say that their faith most definitely drives many of their political beliefs, but not all of them, and sometimes, I agree that it's the other way around. The line is blurred and it's unclear sometimes which is driving which. This is probably 90% of my closest friends, acquaintences, family, and co-workers.
I don't know any evangelicals who support Trump because of his religious/spiritual beliefs, or because they believe his align with theirs. While I am sure there are exceptions, the vast majority of the ones I know support Trump mainly because they despise what they see as extreme liberalism in the democrat party, which they view as anti-Christian, and they love the fact that Trump is a thorn in the Democrat's side. While they know Trump has moral shortcomings, they believe their beliefs and way of life will be protected and better preserved under Trump, while it will be under attack under liberal democrats.
Now, is all of that driven by purely religious beliefs, or is it purely political, completely detached from religion? Neither - it's a mixture of both, it's perfectly natural and reasonable, and trying to paint evangelicals as a bunch of ignorant or dishonest hypocrites is way off the mark. It says more about you than it does them.
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CU Medallion [58931]
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Bottom line, evangelicals voting for Trump is not proof or even evidnce of
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May 19, 2024, 11:23 AM
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hypocricy, ignorance, or dishonesty, and the fact that they do is no mystery or conundrum. It's people supporting someone who they believe best represents their interests.
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Legend [18039]
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"Immigration, gun rights, crime, economy, parental rights"
May 19, 2024, 4:31 PM
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are not specifically religious, but political interests that they contort their religious beliefs to support in their opinion. I'm not arguing they aren't supporting someone who they believe best represents their interests, just that the label "evangelical" is misapplied to them when "conservative or republican" labels fit better since religion matters little/none to the reasoning for their support.
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CU Medallion [58931]
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Like I said, every decision an evangelical makes is not a religious one. That
May 19, 2024, 6:13 PM
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doesn't meant they aren't still very much evangelical. And I don't think they have to do much contorting at all to hold the positions they do on the issues mentioned. I think their positions pretty clearly reflect their religious beliefs in most cases.
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Legend [18039]
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I agree. Not every decision an evangelical makes is a religious one.
May 19, 2024, 9:38 PM
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for instance, when they make a decision based on politics.
Just as a Christian(or any religious person) of liberal belief can use their religion to support why they think protecting the Earth, supporting immigrants, helping minorities, or helping the poor is worthwhile, but in reality...it's simply politics.
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Legend [18039]
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I'm certainly not saying they are ignorant, but they are hypocrites...
May 19, 2024, 4:24 PM
[ in reply to Just my opinion based on my experience ... I have many good friends who are ] |
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same as anyone else really. In my interactions with evangelicals (mostly my extended family, friends and co-workers) there is a clear commonality of politics defining their religious belief instead of the other way around. Trump represents pretty much every deadly sin, has broken every one of the ten commandments, is likely an atheist, and was a democrat for most of his life, but because he's currently a "thorn in the democrats" side and they politically hate the democrats (because they are political, not religious) they will vote for him despite the hypocrisy.
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CU Medallion [58931]
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I simply disagree that evangelicals voting for a scoundrel like Trump is
May 19, 2024, 6:31 PM
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hypocritical. Voting for Trump is in no way an endorsement of any of his moral failings. They would never be able to vote for anybody if they could only vote for somebody who was morally pure and checked all of the evangelical boxes. Sure, some are closer than others, but pragmatically, evangelicals have decided that from a morality standpoint, liberal Democrats must be stopped. That is a higher moral imperative for them than not voting for a scoundrel like Trump.
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Legend [18039]
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Right. A political first, religious second imperative.
May 19, 2024, 9:33 PM
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So when we hear them try to defend their position as based on their religious beliefs or that God has them supporting Trump (or any candidate) we should understand that's nonsense. It's simply that they disagree with the politics of the other candidate/party.
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CU Medallion [58931]
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Agreed, it's a pragmatic, political decision, which they believe will be more
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May 20, 2024, 9:16 AM
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likely to lead to a society that more closely reflects and supports their religious beliefs than the alternative. They are not abandoning their religious beliefs nor are they being hypocritical.
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Legend [18039]
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True, their religious beliefs come after their political interests...
May 20, 2024, 4:20 PM
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and are informed by their political interests instead of vice versa. And that's for their support of the party/platform, not the candidate. Their support and idolatry of Trump, the candidate, is clear hypocrisy when there are other viable and less hypocritical candidates they could have chosen/supported that would carry out the same platform.
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CU Medallion [58931]
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Deciding which candidate to vote for is a political decision; no way around
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May 20, 2024, 5:10 PM
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it, no need for a way around it, and nothing wrong or hypocritical about that. Evangelicals make political decisions every day, just like everybody else. What influences and informs evangelical's political decisions? Their evangelical Christian beliefs.
So here's how it goes when making such a political decision for an evangelical: What happens if a Democrat is elected? Traditional Christian values are one step closer to being destroyed, and I as a Christian am one step closer to being marginalized and persecuted. Therefore, I like Trump and will vote for him because he will best protect me and my way of life as a Christian, and stop the anti-Christian Democrats. Nobody else, no other Republican is a strong and forceful as Trump.
A lot of people are prejudiced and biased and ignorant to some extent, and make political decisions based off of those factors. Absolutely. I would say most people do, including evangelicals; it's human nature and evangelicals are human. That doesn't mean that evangelicals are uniquely hypocritcal or ignore their religion and make purely political decisions that are in conflict with their supposed beliefs
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Legend [18039]
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Exactly. They aren't "uniquely hypocritical"
May 20, 2024, 6:12 PM
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but they are hypocritical, even if they believe it's due to their pragmatism. My argument is only that it's rather easy to see through that so-called "pragmatism" to see the hypocrisy and truth that their politics lead them to idolize Trump, not their religion.
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All-In [25204]
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^^^ T-Rump demagogued as an example of the Anti-Christ per TDS ^^^
May 21, 2024, 12:17 AM
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Speaking of "hypocrisy"...
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Starter [374]
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CU Medallion [58931]
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That is definitely true for some. Most of the ones I know, rightly or wrongly,
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May 19, 2024, 6:39 PM
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simply see Trump as the only thing standing between them and a socialstic, anti-Christian liberal Democrat takeover of our government which will destroy everything that has made America great.
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Starter [374]
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Most of the party absolutely loves Trump. Otherwise
May 19, 2024, 7:39 PM
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Haley would be the nominee.
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CU Medallion [58931]
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All-Pro [657]
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I don't care about the guns. Or crime. Or parental rights ... etc.
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May 18, 2024, 6:31 PM
[ in reply to Immigration, gun rights, crime, economy, parental rights, etc.. ] |
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And I'm probably the closest thing to an evangelical you'll find.
I have guns. I reckon I'll keep them and pass them on to my kids, but if the government decides to take them, the government will take them. That's just a fact. I'm out-resourced on that front.
I can slap all the "Don't Tread on Me" bumper stickers on my truck I want, and carry all the pistols I can carry ... won't change the fact that if a bunch of dudes in tac gear and badges show up to take them, they're going to get them.
Crime? Another political dog whistle for both sides to exploit. We're as safe as we've ever been. We have more cops today than 10 years ago.
Parental rights/abortion rights? We're not a theocracy. Yet. People are going to do what they're going to do. Women are going to get abortions. Babies have been at risk since time immortal. Moloch was a big deal in ancient times, and Moloch is still a reality today.
Again, I'm an evangelical that sees through both Trump and Biden ... they're not the answer. They're just dudes on top of the political dog pile this year. And when they're gone, others will take their place.
Any Christian will tell you our job is obedience to the Lord's will, to live quiet lives and to love our neighbors, do our jobs, and love the Lord with all our heart, soul, body and strength.
It isn't flashy. It isn't avant garde. And it never seeks the spotlight. And rarely runs for office.
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CU Medallion [58931]
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I'm speaking of evangelicals in general, as a group. Congratulations on
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May 18, 2024, 6:45 PM
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not caring about those things, but I know a shitton of evangelicals, and they all care a lot about those things. I agree that Trump and Biden are not the answer, but I think who our president is matters quite a bit. I'm content disagreeing about that.
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Orange Blooded [4063]
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Re: Immigration, gun rights, crime, economy, parental rights, etc..
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May 18, 2024, 8:53 PM
[ in reply to Immigration, gun rights, crime, economy, parental rights, etc.. ] |
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What is the evangelical position on the border and what scripture do they use to justify their position?
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CU Medallion [58931]
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All evangelical positions are not necessarily scripturally based.
May 18, 2024, 9:16 PM
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You are welcome.
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Orange Blooded [4063]
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Re: All evangelical positions are not necessarily scripturally based.
May 19, 2024, 5:56 AM
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So they don't practice what they preach. Coming from a family of "evangelicals", I realize they are mostly FOS. LOL
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CU Medallion [58931]
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Many don't, for sure. Voting for Trump is not an example of that.
May 19, 2024, 11:15 AM
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LOL!
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CU Guru [1493]
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All-In [25204]
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Hall of Famer [24816]
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Re: Maybe it's been asked on here, but why do evangelical Christians support
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May 18, 2024, 3:19 PM
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Not voting for either, but what makes you think Biden is a devout disciplined Christian?
But yeah, this whole idea of Trump as the 'Christian Choice' is laughable.
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CU Guru [1187]
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So....1) Alot of it is about abortion; 2) Folks don't care if Trump has ever
May 18, 2024, 3:35 PM
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stepped into a church OR that Biden attends Mass on a regular basis; 3) there's a long, winding connection that I don't understand between immigration, gun rights, and economy AND being an evangelical; and 4) Catholicism is still a cult for some....
Hijacking my own original question, but I don't understand about folks getting spun up about Catholicism. They are still Christians. I have seen the Church split a bazillion times in my time here by leaders of the Church making stances that are not based in loving one another. Growing up Baptist, the SBC called for a boycott of Disney due to some homosexual issue - 30 years later, some of the best members of our church who are/were most likely gay moved to another denomination, many of the great Baptist Churches of that time are gone, are dying, or they changed into non denominational churches, AND Disney is still taking the money of those old Baptists. Similar issues have split most other denominations, and when splits occur, a small percentage of church goers are gone forever, turned off by the politics. So while I may not agree with Catholic's stances on many issues, they still believe in Jesus, and that is enough for me to call them Christian brothers and sisters. Hijack over.
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110%er [7413]
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Re: So....1) Alot of it is about abortion; 2) Folks don't care if Trump has ever
May 18, 2024, 9:09 PM
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The most important factor is that the Christian faith, when left to its own devices (with very few xceptions re Church ‘officers’ &/or parishioners abusing children, stealing from church coffers, committing acts of violence [not talking about ‘hate speech’ as representing violence], the Christian churches have a self-corrective mechanism to fix their problems.
Pedophile priests (the instances of blatant llegaiity via child molestation being addressed by law enforcement): That the Roman Catholic Church was slow to take preventive action to rid themselves of this abhorrence led to large numbers of defectors. Some went to the Easyern Orthodox Catholic Church. Others went to Protestant sects. Others quit going to church. Of course, some remained. In the end, the self corrective mechanism (I.e., parishioners ‘voting’ with their feet) got the attention of the Roman Catholic Church’s hierarchy.
The recent schism between Methodist Church sub-sects will turn out to be another self-corrective mechanism for resolving quasi-secular philosophical differences.
Whenever Protestant church officers or ministers get caught doing Iimmoral things, they are either booted out or, in the case of deacons / elders, removed from their role. Self-corrective mechanism in working order.
(*). Government involvement in how church sects resolve their faith related differences is undesired govt intervention. It is also un-Constitutional, which only matters to a government that respects and adheres to the Constitution.
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Orange Blooded [2215]
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I think you're asking about White Evangelicals, right?....
May 18, 2024, 11:14 PM
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Black and Hispanic evangelicals, I think, were pro-Biden in 2020.
White evangelicals have been in the GOP camp since maybe the 80's, for the most part.
So, once Trump became the GOP nominee, they lined up behind him, because they despise Democrats & "The Left". All the stuff they used to talk about, wanting a more moral leader and all that....it was ########.
I think there's a portion of White Evangelical America that is more into certain political leaders & virtue-signaling on politics than they are into Christ.
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CU Guru [1656]
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Re: Maybe it's been asked on here, but why do evangelical Christians support
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May 18, 2024, 11:18 PM
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You must have a loose definition of “by all accounts” when it comes to Biden being devout.
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Orange Blooded [2215]
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^^ A right-winger with an all too typical narrow definition of a Christian***
May 18, 2024, 11:24 PM
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CU Guru [1656]
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Re: ^^ A right-winger with an all too typical narrow definition of a Christian***
May 18, 2024, 11:28 PM
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Okay.
Where did I define what a Christian is?
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Orange Blooded [2215]
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Your comment gave you away.***
May 18, 2024, 11:34 PM
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CU Guru [1656]
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Re: Your comment gave you away.***
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May 18, 2024, 11:57 PM
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I don’t need to give myself away.
I’m fine with who I am.
Seems like more speculation on your part.
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CU Medallion [58931]
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Most evangelicals, which comprise nearly 1/4 of all Americans and make
May 19, 2024, 12:28 PM
[ in reply to ^^ A right-winger with an all too typical narrow definition of a Christian*** ] |
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up the single largest religious group in the U.S., don't consider non-evangelicals to be true Christians. Therefore, they would not consider Biden to be a devout, disciplined Christian as described in the OP. It is entirely a matter of opinion and is not some fringe belief.
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All-TigerNet [12336]
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The only thing a lifelong politician like Biden is devout too is swamp politics
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May 19, 2024, 8:37 AM
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and all the corrupting power and greed that comes with it.
In general - anyone looking to any political candidate, particularly one on a national stage, to be a paragon of Christian faith/virtue is probably setting themselves up for a huge disappointment - political party immaterial.
As a Christian - do I want a President who lives by the faith?? Absolutely. But I'm also not blind to what these politicians are - mostly narcissistic ego maniacs who will say and do whatever they think will get voters to show up at the polls.
Like everything else it comes down to actual policy for me. So to answer "Why do evangelical Christians flock to Trump/the GOP?" I think it's because the GOP espouses a "freedom OF religion" position that does less to infringe on their faith in the public square and in the culture war than the Democratic left.
The Democratic left essentially treat religion - particularly Christianity - as something to be practiced only in the confines of a church and in one's home. Don't dare bring one's Christian faith into the public square or espouse a moral value based on Christianity in the debate of a cultural issue. To do so is met with immediate derision and scorn from the left with angry calls to the "separation of church and State" or any of their numerous "ist" and "ism" attacks to silence reasoned dissent to leftist positions.
Simply put, the Democrats typically don't want to allow any breathing space for religion and it's moral compass influence in the public square, the schools, or the broader cultural/social issues of the day. At the same time - the left seeks to institutionalize and force through regulation and law their own leftist moral values - many of which are in conflict with the religious beliefs of those of faith.
So - it's not so much that Christians, or Christian Evangelicals in particular necessarily think Trump is a person of deep faith. Rather, it is that Trump's attitude towards religion and policy positions align closer to their own and that he doesn't seem h.e.l.l. bent on silencing their faith influenced voices while pushing an agenda that is in opposition to their moral values.
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CU Guru [1187]
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Thanks. Perfect rationale. Need more like you on here!
May 19, 2024, 11:09 AM
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Go Tigers!
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Orange Blooded [2215]
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How do you explain the black churches that are generally supportive of dems?
May 19, 2024, 1:48 PM
[ in reply to The only thing a lifelong politician like Biden is devout too is swamp politics ] |
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That would directly refute your point that:
Simply put, the Democrats typically don't want to allow any breathing space for religion and it's moral compass influence in the public square, the schools, or the broader cultural/social issues of the day.
Simply put, that's not true.
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All-TigerNet [12336]
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Yep... it's true...
May 19, 2024, 8:18 PM
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Look at the following statistics from Pew Research:
A clear majority of Christians support Republicans - largely for the reasons I stated to include the open hostility that many receive from the left when expressing their opinions/beliefs in the public square. You will also notice a clear majority of atheist, agnostic, and other religiously unaffiliated overwhelmingly side with Democrats. There is a reason those of little to no faith tend to choose the Democratic side of the aisle and it's not because they perceive the Democrats as being "faith based" or even "faith friendly" in their policy objectives - quite the opposite in many cases.
Just because there is one Christian group (Black protestants) that deviates from all other Christian groups in their voting patterns does nothing to invalidate my answer to the original question about Evangelicals/Christians and their support of Trump. In the case of the Black vote - it is much more than just a religious moral conviction driving their voting pattern.
Most voters choose a side based on a combination of factors to include moral convictions/values, ideology, self interests and to some degree - likeability of the candidate. With the Black vote all those are factors are present but there is also the very heavy influence of group racial identity dynamics and political cultural acceptance that drives their voting pattern that is simply not as prevalent in all other racial voting blocks. Since 1964 Blacks have voted some 85% or more for Democrats. No other racial identity group in the USA votes in such lockstep as the Black community and the fact that Black Christians follow this same racial voting trend is very little surprise.
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Orange Blooded [2215]
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Let me try this again, because my point sailed over your head....
May 19, 2024, 8:39 PM
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You said the following:
Simply put, the Democrats typically don't want to allow any breathing space for religion and it's moral compass influence in the public square, the schools, or the broader cultural/social issues of the day.
My response to that is that black churches are a strong rebuke to that point, as they've always strongly been aligned with Democrats. This is a verifiable example of religion in the public square on the side of Democrats. So, your point is bunk.
BTW, 44% of Catholics are Democrats, as are 38% of Protestants, 69% of Jews and 66%% of Muslims.
You're incredibly dismissive of Christians and other religious people who don't fall in line with MAGA & the GOP.
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All-TigerNet [12336]
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No... Your point was just a cherry pick of a particular racial group who
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May 29, 2022, 9:19 AM
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who is the only group of Christian voters whose majority vote is for Democrats. So I went beyond the scope of the OP to explain why I believe black Christians are the one group counter to the majority all other Christian group voting patterns.
So once more - it's not just about moral values driving the black vote. More so than any other single voting block in the USA - the black vote is heavily influenced by group racial identity dynamics and political cultural acceptance. There is a reason Biden stated "if you don't vote for me - you ain't black". That was not just some Biden gaff bereft of some knowledge of black attitudes towards voting. Biden, as do many Democrats, clearly understands there are significant numbers of black people who associate supporting the Democratic Party as something black people do. Certainly not all black people are this way but it does exist and if you watch the documentary "Uncle Tom" by Larry Elder he covers this very issue in some detail.
I've also seen a similar white Southern cultural voting pattern in my Grandparents (all deceased now) that were born in the late 1890's and early 1900's. My Grandparents only voted Democratic their whole lives because they were brought up to only support Democrats as that is what Southerners were expected to do. As I was told - they would simply not vote for those who were from the party of Lincoln. My Grandparents voted Democratic their whole lives - even when they were more aligned with the Republican candidate positions. It was a cultural thing for my Grandparents and it blew my mind how the loyalty of being a "Southern Democrat" overrode all other considerations when it came to voting.
Back to your comment - I'm not dismissive of any Christians as you assert. I never made any such a claim that all Christians vote GOP. A clear majority of Democrats in Congress identify as "Christian" so there are obviously plenty of Christians who are Democrats and vote Democratic. But again the OP question was not "Why do Evangelicals support Democrats?" So it makes no sense to discuss the minority of Christians who vote for Democrats. So... Don't conflate discussing and recognizing the fact that a majority of Christians vote GOP as being dismissive of those Christians who don't - it just ain't the focus of this thread....
Lastly - you may not agree with my response but that does not make it less valid. The OP asked "Why do evangelical Christians support Trump on matters of faith when Biden by all accounts seems to be a devout, disciplined Christian?" I gave a reasoned response based on the discussions/views of other Christians that I know who vote Republican. They aren't a bunch of MAGA drones as some on this board would attempt to paint them. In fact a lot of them don't particularly care for Donald Trump. But...they are voting for Trump and Republicans based on policy positions which reflect their values, the GOPs perceived willingness to support religious accommodation, AND that they feel many on the left, whom the Democratic Party overwhelmingly support, are dismissive of their Christian influenced values if not outright hostile towards them.
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Orange Blooded [2215]
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No, you still haven't addressed my point....
May 20, 2024, 8:00 PM
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And the longer your response, the more obvious it is you are grasping at straws.
The Left and Democrats generally are more welcome to a diversity of religious views than Republicans.
But Democrats are not against having religion be part of the public square, as has been demonstrated for decades with black churches....Democrats have an alliance with not just black voters, but black churches. That is literally the definition of religion being part of the public square.
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Athletic Dir [860]
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All-TigerNet [11078]
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LOL***
May 19, 2024, 5:19 PM
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All-TigerNet [11078]
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Athletic Dir [889]
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Re: Maybe it's been asked on here, but why do evangelical Christians support
May 21, 2024, 7:39 AM
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It’s simple, trump is a con man from mid town Manhattan and rural America is a gullible easy target.
If you think there’s much more complexity to the situation, you are very likely being conned.
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